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VERY IMPORTANT NOTE

 

DO NOT adjust the gain settings on LFE channel post RP. I repeat DO NOT  adjust LFE.

 

The LFE settings has been calibrated to be 10db louder than the mains, which is the correct settings, ie LFE is mixed at 115db whilst the mains and the rest of the channels at 105db. Increasing the LFE gain will bring about imbalance between the Low frequency effect channel and the mains.

 

So DO NOT touch lfe gain settings after RP to maintain the channel balance between main channels and the subs

 

A better approach is to increase the gain settings on the subwoofer post RP, then measure the SPLs and response

 

Slightly different to Dirac and audyssey

 

 

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On this post here, why not to touch the LFE gain. Here is why.

 

LFE channel is the .1 track in the movie. It’s boosted 10db louder from mains. This should be maintained at all times for the channel balance. And this has already been factored into the avr after RP is done.

 

Also note there is also redirected bass, ie stereo bass from mains routed to the LFE, so all in the subs are taking on LFE 115db in reference + 5db redirected stereo bass from mains LCR and other channels to a maximum 120db in the digital domain.

 

Avoid at all cost boosting LFE, this will cause an imbalance to the stereo and LFE bass, + this will cause clipping in the digital domain if over boosting LFE.

 

A better approach again here is to up the levels on subwoofer by equal gain, using more amplifier power in the analog domain

 

So it’s important not to set the subs dial at maximum or 3 o’clock before eq, set it at midway point or lower before EQ

 

Then you maximise headroom ! That’s the way to go for lyngdorf

 

[emoji16]

 

 

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Lyngdorf users, here is something i discovered. Its not a good news indeed. It looks like the problem for attenuating deep bass is not resolved entirely. It affects those who are running subs that can handle deep bass <20hz greatly. This problem has been identified when using subs through The auxiliary channels on lyngdorf, I’m not sure if using the LFE channel will work normally. But will rewire the cables to find out further

 

35119ee282d83bfabac62d9982803cb9.jpg

 

 

The blue line shows subs, using channel 3 on REW, MV -20, with centre channel amplifier muted.

 

The green is also subs only, using channel 4 on rew, ( channel 4 is the LFE track, that 0.1 track)but MV-30 on MP50 (since LFE channel has a +10db)

 

Seems like RP is still attenuating gain <20hz, on the LFE channel Only. This is confirmed with my measurements and actual listening, the ULF is somehow missing, I don’t feel the ear pressure and the wobbly effect from single digit ULF

 

 

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Here is what happens when I bypass room perfect and switch it off

 

On neutral

 

5e112ffd8486590053f4a0fa4127acda.jpg

 

Subwoofer channel all being constant , the only difference is a change in MV on mp50

 

Measuring channel 4 lfe (in blue), MV-30 on mp50, it shows 74.3db at 40hz

 

Measuring channel 3 (in green) MV-30, it shows 80.7db at 40hz (centre amplifier muted)

 

The one in brown shows channel 3 MV-20, it shows 90.8 at 40hz (centre channel amp muted)

 

Now the increase in volume from -30 to -20 is consistent here on channel 3, ie bass is routed correct and corresponds with the gain settings on master volume

 

But look at the LFE channel, it is not balanced. Technically the LFE channel should be +10db louder than channel 3, but instead it is 5db louder only. So I believe that +5db is stereo bass routed from mains. But where is that +10db on the LFE track ?

 

Also u will notice when I switch off RP, it doesn’t attenuate bass below 30hz anymore....

 

I’m going to try and use the LFE preout channel instead of the auxiliary channels for subs

 

I believe the auxiliary channels are good for small midbass subs, or boundary woofers that can handle bass up to 800hz...

 

 

Definitely not ideal when connecting the deep bass F18 seatons to this channel

 

Or could it be a firmware issue or bug?

 

The ULF is definitely missing

 

 

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Hello all,

 

As mentioned from bro ronildoq to not increase the LFE gain. So I'm the champion which did that.  ;D

 

I'm using aux 1 to 4 as I've 4subs. So I was exploring to understand why I did not have good bass. But after adding in the +10db in LFE, I felt the bass is alive from what I've felt from using Denon 7200wa(borrowed from a brother Winwinc81).

 

I went to rew & looked at my graphs(I will upload the photos over the weekend). Before calibrating all my subs are in phase(front sub 180° & rear sub 0°).

 

After roomperfect , my front subs are in phase, but to my shocking my rear subs are not in phase. So I wrote an email regarding I'm not getting good bass without telling them of the out of phase issues on my rear subs.

 

Myself

 

Hello Smith, 

 

Thanks for the advise. I've swapped the fronts with the subs. I ain't getting good bass effect. I would like to have some advise on this. Do I connect using LFE or from the aux 1-4 since I'm having 4subs. I've connected aux 1-4 at the moment. After calibration I've to up the LFE(trim audio) to +10db & I'm getting good bass effect. Would like to hear your recommendation /advice on this. 

 

 

Mr. Smith

 

Hi

 

if you have been setting up your speakers in the menu, you will see which outputs are dedicated to each speaker

 

when you set the front woofers to LEFT and RIGHT, the corresponding outputs will light up on the setup page

 

your problems are probably due to your rear woofers being out of phase – causing a lot of smearing

 

– I would suggest that you do not connect these and try to do a calibration just with the two fronts

 

as these are now in the corners, they will perform 3 to 6 dB higher than before 

 

Actually I'm quite shocked that they probably knew of the rear subs being out of phase.

 

I will try to calibrate just the front subs & unplugging the rear subs over the weekends.

 

I would like to thank bro ronildoq especially for entertaining my questions when I really was in doubt. Hopefully I'm not that annoying  :-\

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Bro, have u tried connecting your subs to the LFE preout using the splitter instead ? Something definitely wrong with the auxiliary channel when used with subs, I strongly believe it’s the firmware issue not fully resolved

 

I’m also checking with folks at avs forum... strange no one reported the issue

 

Gonna try again this weekend swapping it out to connect to LFE, gotta go get a xlr splitter

 

 

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Bro, have u tried connecting your subs to the LFE preout using the splitter instead ? Something definitely wrong with the auxiliary channel when used with subs, I strongly believe it’s the firmware issue not fully resolved

 

I’m also checking with folks at avs forum... strange no one reported the issue

 

Gonna try again this weekend swapping it out to connect to LFE, gotta go get a xlr splitter

 

 

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Bro,

 

Have not tried LFE yet. I plan over the weekend to do calibration on just front subs using AUX & LFE. Den share the comparison on the both. How do we measure the distance if we using LFE only? Example like me. 5084acdeca6cbe268da8caea08c69b7b.jpg

 

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Bro,

 

Have not tried LFE yet. I plan over the weekend to do calibration on just front subs using AUX & LFE. Den share the comparison on the both. How do we measure the distance if we using LFE only? Example like me. 5084acdeca6cbe268da8caea08c69b7b.jpg

 

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I think it will be hard to mix LFE with aux. the aux is good for subs that extends high to 800hz, those boundary woofers type. I don’t think our normal subs are meant to be used with this

 

I think you should try connecting all 4 subs to the LFE instead. Meaning you would have to first fix the interaction between the front two JL, then fix interaction between back pairs arendal and finally sum of all subs so they are all in phase , then level match them before EQ. Try this with choice of distance to input

 

1) physical distance of subs to MLP

2) add distance further due to amplifier electronical delay. Adding distance to subs will tell avr that subs is further away and need to send the signal earlier. U need to find out how much delay each amplifier introduces since u have JL and arendal. 1m = 2.92 milliseconds delay

3) adjust distance again on the furthest pair of sub, to find best combination blending the 2 pairs

 

That is how u should approach the subs before RP eq

 

Bear in mind that when all subs are in phase, you should hit a max 12db gain down Low frequency.

 

So I would level match the subs to mains before EQ by reducing the dial knob on the subs by 10db overall, that would mean bringing levels down on individual subs equally

 

Do share your results of connecting this to LFE

 

 

 

 

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Nice room & setup. May I know if this setup is in the bedroom or living room?

Hello LTTan,

 

Thank you for your kind words. The setup it's in the living room.

 

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Bro,

 

Have not tried LFE yet. I plan over the weekend to do calibration on just front subs using AUX & LFE. Den share the comparison on the both. How do we measure the distance if we using LFE only? Example like me. 5084acdeca6cbe268da8caea08c69b7b.jpg

 

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Superb setup bro. :) Big Congrats and your definitely enjoy it :) Happy for u.

Never see your Dual Arendal Beast subs :)

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Hello all,

 

As mentioned from bro ronildoq to not increase the LFE gain. So I'm the champion which did that.  ;D

 

I'm using aux 1 to 4 as I've 4subs. So I was exploring to understand why I did not have good bass. But after adding in the +10db in LFE, I felt the bass is alive from what I've felt from using Denon 7200wa(borrowed from a brother Winwinc81).

 

I went to rew & looked at my graphs(I will upload the photos over the weekend). Before calibrating all my subs are in phase(front sub 180° & rear sub 0°).

 

After roomperfect , my front subs are in phase, but to my shocking my rear subs are not in phase. So I wrote an email regarding I'm not getting good bass without telling them of the out of phase issues on my rear subs.

 

Myself

 

Hello Smith,

 

Thanks for the advise. I've swapped the fronts with the subs. I ain't getting good bass effect. I would like to have some advise on this. Do I connect using LFE or from the aux 1-4 since I'm having 4subs. I've connected aux 1-4 at the moment. After calibration I've to up the LFE(trim audio) to +10db & I'm getting good bass effect. Would like to hear your recommendation /advice on this.

 

 

Mr. Smith

 

Hi

 

if you have been setting up your speakers in the menu, you will see which outputs are dedicated to each speaker

 

when you set the front woofers to LEFT and RIGHT, the corresponding outputs will light up on the setup page

 

your problems are probably due to your rear woofers being out of phase – causing a lot of smearing

 

– I would suggest that you do not connect these and try to do a calibration just with the two fronts

 

as these are now in the corners, they will perform 3 to 6 dB higher than before 

 

Actually I'm quite shocked that they probably knew of the rear subs being out of phase.

 

I will try to calibrate just the front subs & unplugging the rear subs over the weekends.

 

I would like to thank bro ronildoq especially for entertaining my questions when I really was in doubt. Hopefully I'm not that annoying  :-\

Went back home today to upload this. Hopefully I gotten the rew correct & apologies if it's wrong on my doing.

 

Using neutral & MV at -30

As mention 4subs. 2x JL Audio E112 (front subs) 2x Arendal Sub3 (rear subs) Connecting it via Aux 1-4

 

When using Ch3, only the front subs are activated. Using Ch4 all subs will be activated.

 

I've muted the center(ch3) when measuring during rew. 784d8266af7d57e96d05441d4cd87170.jpg8a481657a1d84186c6e56afc523b0889.jpg

 

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Superb setup bro. :) Big Congrats and your definitely enjoy it :) Happy for u.

Never see your Dual Arendal Beast subs :)

Hello rock123,

 

Thank you for your kind words bro. Arendal subs at the rear. Hehehe

 

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Went back home today to upload this. Hopefully I gotten the rew correct & apologies if it's wrong on my doing.

 

Using neutral & MV at -30

As mention 4subs. 2x JL Audio E112 (front subs) 2x Arendal Sub3 (rear subs) Connecting it via Aux 1-4

 

When using Ch3, only the front subs are activated. Using Ch4 all subs will be activated.

 

I've muted the center(ch3) when measuring during rew. 784d8266af7d57e96d05441d4cd87170.jpg8a481657a1d84186c6e56afc523b0889.jpg

 

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Bro do this

 

On MV-30, measure channel 4. Mute all amplifier for speakers . This will measure the LFE channel, that 0.1 track

 

On MV-20, measure channel 3, mute all amplifier. This will show if bass is being routed correctly from centre channel to the subs , ie bass management is working as intended when u engage the XO. XO for centre at 200hz just for this test to confirm

 

Measure this with global profile or room perfect engaged

 

Then for the range,  if u subs can go Low, measure from 10hz to 200hz... see how it shows

 

I’ve just got some replies at avs forum someone confirming that the subs for auxiliary is to be used with boundary woofers

 

So I believe we should use the LFE. Ive just hooked up the ddrc88a last night, will use Dirac to EQ subs then send the signal to lyngdorf for RP integration , taking different route now

 

I will verify and confirm again

 

 

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When u engage a XO 100hz on centre channel. Example.

 

If bass management is working, that means any frequencies below 100hz will be handled by the subwoofer.

 

LFE track also plays frequencies up to 100hz if you set the Low pass filter to 100hz.

 

But on rew, measuring channel 4 means measuring the LFE channel. Measuring channel 3 means measuring centre channel. So by muting channel 3 (ie amp for centre speakers) , it will send a signal to channel 3, but remember channel 3 is having xo at 100hz, so u can see from here if bass is being routed correctly to the subs

 

But LFE channel , ie channel 4, is 10db louder.

 

So measuring at mv-20 for channel 3, mv-30 for channel 4, will show you an indentical amplitude response at least up to 100hz. You then can confirm that bass management is working as intended in the avr

 

I’m pretty sure the auxiliary channels are not meant for use with our normal subs after performing the above exercise . OR it could be a firmware issue. So I need to confirm measurements again when subs are connected to LFE

 

 

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How does room perfect integrate my 4subs using aux 1-4 (125hz)

 

MV -30, Neutral (Ch 4 only)

 

7f9558aa3cef0c101aee118653d6bf88.jpg

 

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Bro looks good all subs summing up. Is this after RP ? Global EQ or Focus EQ ?

 

The one in red, sum of all subs at -30mv, measure another channel 3 sum of all subs at -20mv , overlay them

 

Look at 2 things

 

1) if the response is identical

2) if it’s attenuating deep bass < 30hz -20hz

 

I think that’s the crux of the issue here using auxiliary channels

 

If u measure channel 3 at mv -30, u should see the graph having +10db apart from the one on channel 4, then you can confirm the channel balance is correct , ie LFE .1 track is +10db louder than mains

 

 

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9fb8256045018e2eba910ef4db21d4ea.jpg

 

See this one of the guys on avs using the MP50, confirms as well that the auxiliary channel subs are meant to go with the lyngdorf type of boundary subwoofers

 

Those stacked at corner line source type of boundary woofers that is efficient in the high pass band. This arrangement brings much greater benefits where room modes are greatly reduced

 

When the subs are stacked from floor to ceiling in “line source”, the reflections off ceiling and floor is eliminated, we are then left with corner (left right) boundaries , this then produces the speed and Attack

 

Same methodology applied by the Ken Kreisel subs , stack stack stack using dual oppose design in their subs. Will be very effective when it comes to stack from floor to ceiling , that’s when time domain response plays a huge impact on the transient Attack from the subs

 

So small 8”-10” Drivers, stacked in a line , high pass band up to 800hz, pairs with the mains being XO at 700hz, placed at the corners, floor to ceiling , then it goes with the auxiliary channels

 

So yes, our subs are good for LFE, not meant to be used with the auxiliary, unless you go the above approach. The above is only beneficial when taking advantage of the vertical room modes, subs that play up to 800hz type. No benefits whatsoever below 80hz

 

Hope that helps, I’d suggest you use the LFE for all subs, that’s what I’ll be doing now

 

 

 

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Hi,

 

There are some  interesting findings here. It seems for sub, time domain optimization has more impact than frequency domain through actual lisetening test. A perfect flat graph in freq domain does not guarantee superb sub performance.

However these two are inter-related. For example reducing peak to to improve time domain response to say within certain decay time at certain freq will also affect the freq response graph to be less than ideal.

  If so is there a way to optimize time domain and frequency domain for sub without compromising one another ?

Please share. Thanks

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Hi Spyder-Man!! You are my fav superhero!!

 

It seems for sub, time domain optimization has more impact than frequency domain through actual lisetening test. A perfect flat graph in freq domain does not guarantee superb sub performance. <-- you are right. That is why you will hear some people saying, flat graph but doesnt sound nice. Better not EQ or better use ears. But whats missing here is the Time Domain measurements. Both need to be right. I can confirm that a superior time domain alignment is miles better than a perfect amplitude response. You can see from the graph ive achieved that +-0.5db 8-100hz with Dirac EQ, but yet find that room perfect sounded way better due to superior time alignment of mains + subs and a good uniformed decay rate

 

reducing peak to improve time domain response to say within certain decay time at certain freq will also affect the freq response graph to be less than ideal.<—yes and no. It depends how that peak is brought down, there is a difference between using a Modal Filter and Peak Filter. Modal filters are used to accurately counter modal frequencies in the room to match a specific T60 time. A peak filter just attenuates a given peak at a specific frequency, its filters doesn’t account for T60 time. A lot of the minidsp devices comes with modal filters . One thing you need to note is that a peak at MLP may not necessarily translate to a peak at listening position 2. So that is why some peaks are not attenuated because they are not really standing waves or modal frequencies. Another thing is that there is a difference between time alignment vs improving decay times. What RP does very well is time aligning all subs with all speakers in play. It’s the integration part so all impulse hit at the same time at MLP as how they are supposed to. The real challenge is the longer wavelengths & its reflections off walls that arrives later at MLP , especially from lower frequencies. It also does a good job with improving decay times . So two different important things it improves here.

 

 

  If so is there a way to optimize time domain and frequency domain for sub without compromising one another ?

Please share. Thanks <— it’s easy to get the best amplitude response as can be seen from my work using Dirac above. But it’s very hard to achieve superior time alignment between subs and mains, plus all other speakers, this part is very very difficult. You can probably optimise subs with centre speakers, as that speaker matters most for HT. That is the best you can do. Other programmes like JBL’s arcos system does a great job as well

 

 

 

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Bro looks good all subs summing up. Is this after RP ? Global EQ or Focus EQ ?

 

The one in red, sum of all subs at -30mv, measure another channel 3 sum of all subs at -20mv , overlay them

 

Look at 2 things

 

1) if the response is identical

2) if it’s attenuating deep bass < 30hz -20hz

 

I think that’s the crux of the issue here using auxiliary channels

 

If u measure channel 3 at mv -30, u should see the graph having +10db apart from the one on channel 4, then you can confirm the channel balance is correct , ie LFE .1 track is +10db louder than mains

 

 

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This is after RP. Global EQ.

 

Shall try your recommendation tmr night & upload the results. Let's cross fingers [emoji23]

 

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Bro looks good all subs summing up. Is this after RP ? Global EQ or Focus EQ ?

 

The one in red, sum of all subs at -30mv, measure another channel 3 sum of all subs at -20mv , overlay them

 

Look at 2 things

 

1) if the response is identical

2) if it’s attenuating deep bass < 30hz -20hz

 

I think that’s the crux of the issue here using auxiliary channels

 

If u measure channel 3 at mv -30, u should see the graph having +10db apart from the one on channel 4, then you can confirm the channel balance is correct , ie LFE .1 track is +10db louder than mains

 

 

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Ok. Here's the results. I did more readings just incase. 29e2928a172030c10bf52684291b7f5c.jpg

 

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Ok. Here's the results. I did more readings just incase. 29e2928a172030c10bf52684291b7f5c.jpg

 

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Just incase if I confuse anyone. Below pictures are the more detailed.

 

Apologies for the spamming [emoji28]0ec1eb0db1f8d9eb9ab58ba33834057a.jpg4a47543d4e9627614d41630f0a6ae890.jpg

 

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Bro, thanks for posting your version

 

A simple 2 graph picture is all you will need to tell a lot of things

 

I can confirm that the channel balance is correct. The problem I’ve had was due to one of the f18 woofer at deep bass location having an air leak !! Yes, air leak on the woofer

 

67ea950b6603ca79542962ecbc891073.jpg

 

No wonder the deep bass was missing, tightened some screws and see the difference in DB, same master volume , 20db off ! And I thought it was the lyngdorf firmware issue.

 

So with your confirmation above, can safely conclude that the channel balance is set correctly and deep bass attenuation issue had been fixed indeed, great news !

 

But having gone through a thorough examination of the mp50, I would still go with LFE for the subs, unless you are using the boundary woofers

 

You can see from above on one single graph green vs red, channel 4 (LFE) -30 and channel 3 (centre) -20, see the green line from 30-40hz, there is cancellation between your front two subs. And using this auxiliary method, it will send bass from centre to the front subs only.

 

But using the LFE connection method, it will send the sum of all 4 subs signal as 1, which is the red signal, much better

 

Technically the lfe and channel 3 should should be identical. Then u know bass management is working correctly

 

 

 

 

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Ok, confirmed measurement , simulated amplitude response not as accurate, the room Sim is. But for amplitude, not so accurate.... so back down to basic, actual measurements are best, no chance for shortcut

 

d551b1721e1a874b09350eb4b9bcab92.jpg

 

The green above is the stacked subs. I’ve inserted a high pass filter for the co located subs shown in blue, a high pass of 23hz 48db Butterworth filter. I could just leave it without the high pass filter. It will contribute to the ULF. But I have energy going into the room, the high pass filter on the colocated subs will bring about the lower midbass and midbass Attack and speed, not introducing too much energy into the room on other areas. (PS: a dip at MLP <30hz, could be a peak at other locations), high passing was the obvious choice for me...I’ll use the stacked corner subs for ULF, should have ample juice with a 6000w amplifier at 1.5k watts each, that should be more than enough horse power

 

abea738964d2ea41b27b16efd7ec15c5.jpg

 

This is the actual response before room perfect, measured at a target 80db, both summing up without having to reach for the delay knob or to invert phase...

 

3cddaecc377363f077e8b4060b4d2967.jpg

 

Now let’s look at the subs in the time domain... you can see it’s clean down from 56hz to 100hz , decay is less than 0.4ms from 56hz onwards. This means the kitchen sliding bass trap door (this is a special door, with 120kg density rockwool stuffed inside, backing with mass loaded vinyl and ply finishing.) and the ceiling panels are working as intended. Previously I used to have ringing at 68hz and 90hz... this is now eliminated, measurements taken at 40db above noise floor , as u can see in red, the peak SPLs at 92db.

The only problem now is the 55hz ringing, u can see it extends up to more than 1ms, this is nasty. It is caused by the height modes in the room and I know exactly where this location is. But I’ll use EQ to attenuate this peak and bring down the ringing. This can be confirmed from the second graph above as well, u can see the peak in the room at 55hz. As for the 20-40hz slow decay rate, this Is common, especially for lower frequencies. But for these frequencies, I’ll use the PSI active bass trap to improve decay times and I know exactly where this should be placed.

 

All in, you will notice that the decay rates are uniform, consistent, and somewhat downward sloping according to the room. Downward sloping meaning from 56hz onwards at 0.38ms and as it approaches 100hz, the time taken for the energy to dissipate becomes 0.2ms, as can be seen from the blue plume...

 

Everything is exactly where I want it to be, for HT... this can be confirmed with actual listening, a much tighter and controlled midbass and upper midbass, very natural indeed due to the consistent decay rates...

 

Now that I have the collective measurement data, it’s time to dismantle the system and hook up the lyngdorf today

 

My focus is mainly on bass management and bass, this is the most difficult area in my experience setting up a HT system, but let’s hope RP blends the mains and subs well, let’s see what RP will bring to the table

 

More updates as and when I have them...

 

My main job is to bring out the best in the MP-50 in my living room, the subs, and all the equipment in the chain.

 

No Pain No Gain !

 

 

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But I have energy going into the room, the high pass filter on the colocated subs will bring about the lower midbass and midbass Attack and speed, not introducing too much energy into the room on other areas.

 

Hi guys, correcting one misconception above. Introducing the high pass filter doesn’t bring any benefits at all to speed and transient Attack from the subs. The speed and Attack is achieved with good time alignment from the subs. The high pass filter is just helpful to protect the subs , that’s all there is to it. It however introduces delay that messes up with the time response

 

So correction on my part after experiencing the above, I’ve removed the high pass filter on the subs located at strong midbass position. It is far more detrimental in my case, as it doesn’t contribute down Low after this filter and messes things up in the time domain, that affects the speed actually, so it’s the other way round

 

If someone tells u high pass for midbass and Low pass for deep bass, u may want to actually confirm if this really is beneficial to the set up as a whole

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Some good news on the EDID issue on the MP50.

 

Every now and then if I come across any issues on the mp50, it will be updated on the front page together with that solutions if any...

 

36a5b7b578294ad4df95e5a5f30f9e67.jpg

 

Let’s hope this gets fixed permanently soon

 

 

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